The Church, Hitler, and the self-kneecap-shot

[manhut]

all in all itsa all beuul shit. stop discussing what has already been dsuiscuessed.

[Deviant]

Just want to point out that science can't proove bigbang theory, it can only explain it. And there's a difference Only way to proove BBT afaik would be to recreate it... and that... well, we heard you like universes so we created an universe inside your universe so you can exist while you ummm... ye...

Also, there was a theory that there's a blackhole at the bottom of the sea @ bermuda's triangle... and it would be a wormhole... and the other side would be around near Japan. Science be praised! And no, its not some sciencefiction (... ok maybe it is) but there was a documentary of this and it was also mentioned in the wikipedia (although that part has been removed).. CARRY ON.

[havoc]

Just want to point out that science can't proove bigbang theory, it can only explain it.

On the contrary m8, but i think you kinda mix up proof as used in court vs proof used in science. Here and here you can find some basic info on how science works in this regard. The theories in science ARE explanations, but supported by evidence, otherwise they are hypothesis. Also heres some BigBang evidence, just as an example of what is considered as scientific evidence.

[Deviant]

Just want to point out that science can't proove bigbang theory, it can only explain it.

On the contrary m8, but i think you kinda mix up proof as used in court vs proof used in science. Here and here you can find some basic info on how science works in this regard. The theories in science ARE explanations, but supported by evidence, otherwise they are hypothesis. Also heres some BigBang evidence, just as an example of what is considered as scientific evidence.

Hah, to presume the humans could understand all the pieces and variables of something as fucking huge as this is imho arrogant and very foolish. Science can't even explain how the flies fly, and now you claim that we know for a fact how the universe was created? Btw, the universe contains planets that are so big that even scientist can't explain their size

[havoc]

you underestimate the true power of the science m8.
while its true its path is short yet (thanks church!), and it kinda does its first real steps just now, its not some joke at all.
there are huge efforts and huge work going on by the best experts we have on this planet. well at least whats possible with the current budgets (something like 1.17% of the gdp for finland for 2010 for example, and thats a pretty high number compared to the most countries, who usually stay below 0.5-1%).
also, i dont claim anything, since that would be foolish and arrogant, and believe me no one assumes anything for certain in science (the scientists themselves even less), because that would be foolish and arrogant too. and not only that, it would be wrong (note the "That is, no theory is ever considered certain" in the scientific method article. science is much more flexible than common people are led to think. exploiting the uneducated, anyone?).

as i said, the current theories are just the best we got so far. in the future (with better and more precise knowledge and instruments) new evidence may appear proving or disproving those theories. no one really knows, thats what science is all about.

the sure thing is, science needs (even our, as bystanders) support to get better, not to be bashed down to another dark age. ITS NOT YOUR ENEMY, ITS YOUR FRIEND!!11!

[AimMe]

What Marx said is, whoever does the real work, shouldnt live like animal. He/she deserves better. Interesting how this point in his works is kinda missed. I guess something to do with impossibility to blame him for stuff since he would look too "moral". As for the French revolution, and all other revolutions so far actually, they all end up like that - the social tension is released mostly as violence, a short euforia combined with feeling of "freedom", and then fast backward to reality. And reality is - sheep need shepherd. Without him/her they are lost. And thats what they get. Thats what lack of (good) education results in. And as i say "education", i definitely dont mean just going to school. I mean much more than that.

No, i really don't blame Marx. I give it as example, how that new idea got support, nobody could see somebody like Hitler misusing it.

but this - "We have different opinions, i don't think we can find same language." - this makes me kinda sad m8. you are drawing a line between us, and im not sure why. maybe you dont enjoy diversity of ideas, points of view and opinions? or should i accept your views, so when we are on the same side, then we find same language? you are willing to ignore the common ground, so only our differences matter?

OR

it was late, you have mistyped something, i didnt get it quite right, and its all a misunderstanding?

Maybe i said it wrong. I wanted to say that i have my point of view, i "know" my religion, i "understand" it and i look through it. You have your's point, you know about science and you look through science. So problem between us isn't that you have to come to my side, or i have to come to yours, but we should meet another side. I think if i knew science better, and you knew religion better, we would probably be able get some same conclusion. I mean we already did good job, be agreed on some things.

you underestimate the true power of the science m8.
.
.
.
the sure thing is, science needs (even our, as bystanders) support to get better, not to be bashed down to another dark age. ITS NOT YOUR ENEMY, ITS YOUR FRIEND!!11!

This reminds me in "Come to the dark side of Force!" and "You're underestimating my powers" by Anakin Skywalker .

Yea, i agree science is friend, and that we need it. Well i wouldn't like that we talk something like this on some Roman forum before 2000 years.

[eXtr33m]

Uarrghhh i am too tired to post something long so just message for havoc:

Stand up. Try to get power. And i am in the mood to PROMISE you that the people that will try to slow you down, kill u, remove u, i dont now what, won't be religious people. See? They have fu*king power but they are pissing on some "science" (and education of course) and i dont think they are religious. So try to solve that first

Anyway what do you say bout scientists which are religious? There are many of them i think...

[Deviant]

you underestimate the true power of the science m8.
while its true its path is short yet (thanks church!), and it kinda does its first real steps just now, its not some joke at all.
there are huge efforts and huge work going on by the best experts we have on this planet. well at least whats possible with the current budgets (something like 1.17% of the gdp for finland for 2010 for example, and thats a pretty high number compared to the most countries, who usually stay below 0.5-1%).
also, i dont claim anything, since that would be foolish and arrogant, and believe me no one assumes anything for certain in science (the scientists themselves even less), because that would be foolish and arrogant too. and not only that, it would be wrong (note the "That is, no theory is ever considered certain" in the scientific method article. science is much more flexible than common people are led to think. exploiting the uneducated, anyone?).

as i said, the current theories are just the best we got so far. in the future (with better and more precise knowledge and instruments) new evidence may appear proving or disproving those theories. no one really knows, thats what science is all about.

the sure thing is, science needs (even our, as bystanders) support to get better, not to be bashed down to another dark age. ITS NOT YOUR ENEMY, ITS YOUR FRIEND!!11!

Well what I surely dont want to underestimate is the possibility of human error or a mistake. And when you are reckoning with forces that created all of the universe, stuff like antimatter, I think it's best to be a bit precautious and not get too 'cocky'. Afterall imo science is supposed to be a humble study of what is and not about going pointing fingers at different religions everytime you find something that could prove them wrong only to find out tomorrow that maybe there was some variable they didn't count in. Ofc you have to show the results of your studies to get funds etc. but whatever.

As far as the christianity goes, I really don't blame it for anything. Like I mentioned in previous post christianity has been used as excuse or agenda for roman emperors to wage war and conquer etc. Fear has always been one type of power to keep people obeying, and also it is only natural for human nature to despise / be afraid of something that is odd or what they dont understand.

Also I would like to rise a question of how will finding out how universum was made help human kind? Wouldn't it be smarter to set your sights into the future and not look so much in the past? Or is the reason partly to get rid of religions? I do agree that solving these problems might open doors to new innovations and theories but I think that's also highly debatable (and way over my head ofc.)

[havoc]

Maybe i said it wrong.

everything is ok then.

I wanted to say that i have my point of view, i "know" my religion, i "understand" it and i look through it. You have your's point, you know about science and you look through science.

truth is, i used to be quite religious person myself (long time ago), maybe thats why overreact a bit over such things. please, excuse me.
i have done and still doing my reading on both science and religion (and lots of other stuff too of course).

I mean we already did good job, be agreed on some things.

see? thats the spirit. we need more togetherness like that.

:) This reminds me in "Come to the dark side of Force!" and "You're underestimating my powers" by Anakin Skywalker ;).

it is indeed a reference to

You underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

...So try to solve that first ;)

ah the human heart m8. no one can really fix that, except humans themselves. tho im pretty sure both religious and non-religious people would be involved in your unfortunate fate. lust for power is kinda beyond religious concepts, unless you are zen buddhist or something.

Anyway what do you say bout scientists which are religious? There are many of them i think...

there are indeed religious scientists, even if their views on god are usually much wider than those of a redneck fundamentalist christian down there in Iowa. not only that, but the Vatican has their own scientists, and while they are rarely seen on tv/internet and such, they do make some really interesting points in their research. Also, a good part of the most basic stuff in math and astronomy comes out of the ancient muslim scientists.

Well what I surely dont want to underestimate is the possibility of human error or a mistake. And when you are reckoning with forces that created all of the universe, stuff like antimatter, I think it's best to be a bit precautious and not get too 'cocky'.

im sure those people dont have death wishes :)

Afterall imo science is supposed to be a humble study of what is

and it is. but without taking risks here and there, we are going nowhere. limits have to be pushed further. no way around that.

and not about going pointing fingers at different religions everytime you find something that could prove them wrong only to find out tomorrow that maybe there was some variable they didn't count in. Ofc you have to show the results of your studies to get funds etc. but whatever.

i have never seen scientific research done just for the reason to disprove god. dont think they would get funding for that EVER. but ye one could draw conclusions out of certain researches that god does or does not exist. thats more media-oriented stuff tho, not much of science there.

Also I would like to rise a question of how will finding out how universum was made help human kind? Wouldn't it be smarter to set your sights into the future and not look so much in the past?

thats simple questions that require complex answers tho. if you insist i will try to answer those later. for now a short one - curiosity?

Or is the reason partly to get rid of religions?

absolutely no. science is interested in studying the religion from social, cultural and whatever point of view. and while major religions would like very much to represent science as the opposite of religion like the two ends of a single stick, the truth is they are not in the same league AT ALL.

I do agree that solving these problems might open doors to new innovations and theories but I think that's also highly debatable (and way over my head ofc.)

solving those will definitely further our progress as a race, and widen our views. but just solving them is really huge work, benefiting from them is out of the question yet.

[eXtr33m]

Also I would like to rise a question of how will finding out how universum was made help human kind? Wouldn't it be smarter to set your sights into the future and not look so much in the past?

thats simple questions that require complex answers tho. if you insist i will try to answer those later. for now a short one - curiosity?

No, there is a short answer. Imagine video. You see the end where is a ball in the air. You dont know where the ball was starting you just see "now" when the ball is in the air. Right you have no chance of knowing where will the ball go. But if look into "past", play video backwards, more you see, its easier for you to find out how the ball will fly. (the ball is behaving by some physical laws.. ye we cannot know if the universe is similar but the point is ok..)

P(ea/i)(c/s)(e/s)