The Church, Hitler, and the self-kneecap-shot

[havoc]

Catholics demand that atheists apologize for Hitler

Hiter's (relevant) quotes

Seems the religious ones haven't done their reading, shooting themselves in the leg again. While its true Stalin and Mao were atheists (and Hitler was whatever he was) and wasted millions of people, they did it in such scale mostly because they had the resources to do it. Because lets face it - throughout most of the human history the winner deals with the opposition (or whatever is perceived as "opposition") one way or another.

Just like the Church does it for 2000 years by eliminating or otherwise discrediting (or at least trying to) the scientific elite, whom they obviously feel threatened by, thus stalling the evolution of the whole human race (until the point of self-destruction maybe, but thats not sure yet).

I know someone will say here - whats the human evolution to do with sciences and technologies? Aren't they "unnatural" and "artificial"? No, they aren't. When a monkey uses a stick to get ants for food, it uses the exact scientific methods and technology we use. But you wont call that "unnatural" right? Because the monkey does it. And you might think you are somewhat different than a monkey, but you are not. A bit balder and with better developed speech center, but thats it. We are all animals here. And our science and technology is all natural, because it comes out of nature, out of us. And we use it just like the monkeys to get stuff we want, to get us that shortcut (and an edge over the other species) to easier food, or knowledge, or whatever.

And its the Church who must be kept responsible here, not the "atheists", for holding the humanity back for so long, for 2000 years of torture, killings, lies, deceit, theft, even more theft (remember the vatican bank scandal just few years ago?), witch hunts (o yes, they did burn lots of innocent women), pedo priests, withholding information, resisting and tampering with education (amazing, they still trying to do this) and so on. They are the ones who must apologize. Its just because of them that our morality lags behind our technology. And will be just because of them and that precious time they lost for all of us, now that bigger problems are on the horizon and coming fast, and we dont have the means to solve them.

ok i better try to calm down now.
inhale, exhale.

[AimMe]

As much as Church does it, science does it too. Ever heard of cloning experiments? Of economic wars?

Both should exist and try to make themself even. If one would exist, world would end probably.

And look, if Church did not slow down evolution, we would have no water, food or normal air. Everything would be polluted. It is question if we would exist. Yes, Church does slow down evolution, but question is is it good or bad.

But this: "Catholics demand that atheists apologize for Hitler" is stupid. How can anybody apology for something they didn't do? It's only Hitlers fault, nobody's else. By same logic, asians can say that white people should apologize for Hitler. WTF?

[havoc]

i will reply to clarify some stuff, not to confront you in any way.
we atheists know better than that alright.
"cooperation is more important than competition". :)

As much as Church does it, science does it too.

First of all i think you kinda imply different meaning to those two.
Church is an organization, pretty much like mafia or political parties. Its quite centralized and totalitarian. They have their holly book and such, and lets say it - NOTHING REALLY PROVEN. Science on the other hand is distributed in many small organizations, and its consensus (where it exists) comes out of agreement over scientific theories. When i say "scientific theories", i mean well proven theories based on whatever science has accepted as facts so far, not theories that you can hear over a table with rakia and foodz. The two may look like something similar, but they are not. They dont belong in the same sentence even if you ask me. True, science is used for all kinds of wrong things, but its we humans that do that, not the science itself. We do it in the name of God, even.

Ever heard of cloning experiments?

Yes. Id pretty much like to have a cloned Angelina J. Or even my own clone, that would be fun! Joke aside, cloning can reveal very important information for us, and help medicine even more. Unfortunately it has something to do with "god's work" so its forbidden for this and other reasons. There is something spooky about it ye. And dangerous too. But its humans that make it dangerous and immoral.

Of economic wars?

While some science is involved in those, they are waged by businessmen, politicians and market traders in the name of profits and power. Nothing to do with science itself. I guess many of those people go to church too.

Both should exist and try to make themself even.

That wont happen, and its because of the Church, not the science. Personally i think religions belong in history books, to be celebrated as our cultural, traditional and ethnic diversity, but not to rule peoples lives and create conflicts all over the place. People die because of this, its not a joke man. And those are pretty much avoidable deaths.

If one would exist, world would end probably.
And look, if Church did not slow down evolution, we would have no water, food or normal air. Everything would be polluted. It is question if we would exist. Yes, Church does slow down evolution, but question is is it good or bad.

Have some faith in humanity m8. We have a long way behind us, and i hope a long way ahead of us, and all that without god's intervention. If the church didnt slow our progress down, we would have encountered lots of todays problems long time ago, and most probably found solutions to (many) of them by now.
Also, we have Church now, and we have polluted water, air and food too. How about that? Thats just an example tho, its totally wrong way of thinking. The answer to pollution is human greed and easy profits mostly, and believe me the solution to this kind of problems is the science. Including in educating people in the history of their own species evolution, that we survived as a group, not as individuals. And we continue to do so, and will continue to do so, because thats how nature goes. Its beyond us. Fuck up the group with your own greed - the whole suffers. And yes i agree theres serious desync between our morality, our abilities and whatever. But i only see it as church's fault (that is, we talking science vs church here, there are lots of other reasons too), and lack of science and proper education. They messed it and we are experiencing the results just now. As for good and bad, you know, "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Just points of view. From my point of view what church did so far is bad.

But this: "Catholics demand that atheists apologize for Hitler" is stupid. How can anybody apology for something they didn't do? It's only Hitlers fault, nobody's else. By same logic, asians can say that white people should apologize for Hitler. WTF?

Im afraid thats how they act lately. Yes, they ARE that stupid, i think you are missing a lot on that part, judging by your reply. They are against condoms too btw.

On a side note, if its only Hitler's fault, i dont think so. Its everyone's fault. Those around him, those who allowed the whole thing to happen, both in Germany and outside, not to mention those who helped financially making the whole thing possible - everyone is involved, one way or the other. So no, its not Hitler's fault, its humanity's fault. He was just one person.

On the other hand, Gandhi was too just a person. But that can only show how really diverse we really are, from Hitler to Gandhi - its all us humans. Everyone can be either Hitler or Gandhi, our self-awareness makes it possible for us to choose what we will be. And theres no excuse when someone chooses to act like Hitler, or church, or communist party in former ussr/china, or just like a common retard or "businessman". Not that its just bad - its WRONG. Its against the principles of nature, and must be stopped right there.

[manhut]

But, if the church held every atheist/other religionist down, doesn't that mean they were the better group, and therefore totally according to darwin, the biggest diversity, and therefor, the 'fittest'?

[eXtr33m]

I must say i dont understand the problem, but i see they are like children arguing (the catholic league and British Humannist Asoc.) so i cant comment the problem.

Second thing is (The one who believe there is god) = (the one who believe there is god).

Third thing is, imagine this situation: I will call myself a Nazi. I wont kill anyone i will be polite and absolutely normal but i will call myself Nazi. Can we then say that not all Nazis are bad? I dont think so. Because i am not a Nazi even if I call myself like that. So even if there is a CATHOLIC league is it really catholic? okay you say "but they are official so they must be catholic". True, they do mistakes, they are bad, and ye maybe they just want to be better. And maybe the problem why officials of catholic are so wrong sometimes is because their superiors forgive them. see how bad is religion working, but it is working..

Havoc i have interesting idea, do you know any living thing (dont count us) who could destroy all the life on Earth. I think we can do it now, or if not in a near future. I think thats why are we different. Was it all just random event that created us? Who knows.

Lol at manhut.. Darwins theory is changing its meaning. At least from it simple definition.

Peace.

[havoc]

stuff

kinda simplistic understanding of darwin's work, both true and false. what is true: yes they were trying to get dominant at the time, using very well refined propaganda, the lack of education among the common peoples, intimidation and terror. just take a look at how christainity was forced across eu countries. all you will find is massacres. what is false: darwin had slightly different things in mind. church (or hitler, or stalin) wants power over its subjects, and eventually extermination of all who oppose. and taking over resources is just means to reach that goal. whats darwinistic here is that they do it to extend their existence. however, the control is slowly slipping away over the ages, and lately they feel kinda cornered, and are getting aggressive again.

it is very important to understand this one thing here - the vatican/church/whatever is not some deeply religious elders or something. they dont believe in god. i mean if they did, they wouldnt be doing what they are doing right? like they wont be hoarding money and would be the first to point finger at pedo priests? instead of covering for them? or cursing the gays to hell? come on - god loves all peoples right? etc etc. lots of examples really.

stuff

on the first thing - dont worry, the show is comming to your town too. soon! what was once problem elsewhere, soon will become yours too. thats what globalization means :) or at least, one of the meanings.

second thing is kinda mysterious to me.

third thing - call yourself what you want, its the way you act that makes you nazi or not. all your beliefs are just things in your head, nothing real. your actions on the other hand, are.

on that idea - ye only we have the means to terminate all the life on the planet. we can do it now or later ye. point is, we havent done it YET, so theres still hope :) that doesnt make us any different tho, not only with monkeys, but fishes too. so, in short, life is really a huge phenomenon. and we better concentrate on such tasks like understanding it better, rather than plucking each others eyes over god or money.

i mean, imagine your liver thinking - hey why should i share the blood with the other organs? i can get much better if i got it all for myself! fuck those brains, guts and kidneys! - you can imagine how much your organism will last like that. and what an interesting experience will be your last days.

btw do you know life was almost 100% exterminated like 4 or so times during the history of the planet so far? cant remember the exact number but something like 4 i think. and ye there are random events involved in our evolution, like the one that wiped out the dinosaurs. gave us small mammals really good opportunity to evolve. as for the "missing link" between humans and apes etc, there is no such thing really, no mystery there. we already have all the major links in the chain of our evolution, now just finding out more details about it.

p.s. dont get me wrong, i know lots of religious peoples who are perfectly ok and somewhat reasonable, trying to find some deeper meaning in the idea of god and explore the life thru the idea of god.

also i have too much information to communicate on the subject, so it may appear i talk inconsistent bullshit, just be patient and bear with me, it will all come in place at some point :)

[BEH]

..too much to read atm.. maybe i'll read later. i got till half of havoc's 2nd post
..
..so basicly Hitler sux, church sux, people with power generally suck, and we game and get pissed.

[Deviant]

:| Third thing is, imagine this situation: I will call myself a Nazi. I wont kill anyone i will be polite and absolutely normal but i will call myself Nazi. Can we then say that not all Nazis are bad? I dont think so. Because i am not a Nazi even if I call myself like that. So even if there is a CATHOLIC league is it really catholic? okay you say "but they are official so they must be catholic". True, they do mistakes, they are bad, and ye maybe they just want to be better. And maybe the problem why officials of catholic are so wrong sometimes is because their superiors forgive them. see how bad is religion working, but it is working..

Imagine the situation where someone joins DSWP server and says he's a hacker? First of all, why would someone do that if he's not hacking? To piss off others? How nice of him. And also, it is not only about your actions, but also your beliefs and morals. If you say you're a nazi, it is fairly reasonable to presume that you agreed on most of the stuff that Hitler did too? Same way if someone says he's a christian it is fair to presume that he/she beliefs in god and agrees on most of the stuff that bibble says. And if you agree on what Hitler thought or did, you wouldn't interfere even if someone would be beating the living shit out of a person if front of you only because he represents a certain ethnic group. And for me, accepting something like that is as bad as doing it yourself.

The problem with Christians is that you can't really argue with them, believe me, I've tried... It's because their logic basically goes "You can't understand this stuff by reasoning. I know that it is so, and nothing you say can change my point of view.". Also, Christians are VERY intolerant in the end, which however is actually quite logical. I mean, if you would KNEW that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ and the crew etc. you WILL burn in hell, wouldn't it be your christian DUTY to save as many souls by any means necessary? And when you put a devout Muslim who really really REALLY knows that what he believes in is right and this christian in the same table... It's funny that even though pretty much ALL old / major religions share the same points of views / guides for life, it's those religions that have caused SO much bloodshed... Fighting for peace is as smart as fucking for virginity.

Some ppl (my parents included) are deeply disturbed and disgusted by some of the islamic religions traditions etc. (such as marrying children, stoning ppl to death etc.etc.) but you can find some barbaric stuff in the bibble too... and arranged marriage isn't exactly a foreign concept here in europe either... I guess the reason why most 'modern' countries and religions don't do that anymore is due globalization, education and civilization (I don't think that we are better people because of this ofc)... Maybe christianity has changed so much due of it being such a dominant religion in terms of amount of ppl who are under it's influence and due to it being such a strong political power (purely guessing here x| ). What is really funny about this though is how Christians prefer to take some parts of the bibble literately that suits best of their own beliefs etc. For example one of the parts that says being gay is sin, later in the same part it says that you can stone disobidient child to death (or something like that).

Whatever tbh, Im not going to loose my nights sleep over petty religious conflicts or statements... Just don't try to shove your religion down my throat and we'll get along just nicely.



So what does this have to do with the topic? IDK.
Sorry for the interruption, carry on

[AimMe]

**if you're not havoc you may not want to read our "conflict", it's long text.

First of all i think you kinda imply different meaning to those two.
Church is an organization, pretty much like mafia or political parties. Its quite centralized and totalitarian. They have their holly book and such, and lets say it - NOTHING REALLY PROVEN. Science on the other hand is distributed in many small organizations, and its consensus (where it exists) comes out of agreement over scientific theories. When i say "scientific theories", i mean well proven theories based on whatever science has accepted as facts so far, not theories that you can hear over a table with rakia and foodz. The two may look like something similar, but they are not. They dont belong in the same sentence even if you ask me. True, science is used for all kinds of wrong things, but its we humans that do that, not the science itself. We do it in the name of God, even.

Ok, then, world never started. Then black holes don't exist. Why? Because Big Bang isn't proven. None theory of creating of world is proven. And we don't have any proven theory of what black holes are and what they do, what happens it them etc. Todays science is advanced, yet not everything is known. There must've been something that started it all. It could be God, could be Zeus or Force, but it wasn't science.

And as science does bad things, Church does them. Not by itself, but by humans in it. Problem is when priests don not behave as they should, same way scientist don't behave as they should. Priest broke law when he _interacted_ with child, scientist broke law when he _interacted_ with "test sample".

Yes. Id pretty much like to have a cloned Angelina J. Or even my own clone, that would be fun! Joke aside, cloning can reveal very important information for us, and help medicine even more. Unfortunately it has something to do with "god's work" so its forbidden for this and other reasons. There is something spooky about it ye. And dangerous too. But its humans that make it dangerous and immoral.

Yeah, if clone was perfect. Till now none clone lived more than 5 years. All were retarded, with missing organs and so. When they tried to clone extincted species of one animal, they had over 5 millions sample female eggs, only 1 animal was born and died 2 minutes after. If animal doesn't die, it is killed because it can't live normal life. If they can't clone animal, they can't clone human.

While some science is involved in those, they are waged by businessmen, politicians and market traders in the name of profits and power. Nothing to do with science itself. I guess many of those people go to church too.

Yeah, but there was no businessmen before science. Business as it is now came after PC's and after pharmacy.

That wont happen, and its because of the Church, not the science. Personally i think religions belong in history books, to be celebrated as our cultural, traditional and ethnic diversity, but not to rule peoples lives and create conflicts all over the place. People die because of this, its not a joke man. And those are pretty much avoidable deaths.

Yeah, nuke's could've been avoided too. I don't know if more people died from weapons or religion, but both made great damage to earth. Still, it's not like God said "Go kill them, they are not one of yours.", it was human who couldn't see different opinions. I personally think that you can't be wrong with religion, after all it is something you should decide by yourself. But still somebody has to say to you what it is. Force in religion is something human, and totally stupid.

Have some faith in humanity m8. We have a long way behind us, and i hope a long way ahead of us, and all that without god's intervention. If the church didnt slow our progress down, we would have encountered lots of todays problems long time ago, and most probably found solutions to (many) of them by now.
Also, we have Church now, and we have polluted water, air and food too. How about that? Thats just an example tho, its totally wrong way of thinking. The answer to pollution is human greed and easy profits mostly, and believe me the solution to this kind of problems is the science. Including in educating people in the history of their own species evolution, that we survived as a group, not as individuals. And we continue to do so, and will continue to do so, because thats how nature goes. Its beyond us. Fuck up the group with your own greed - the whole suffers. And yes i agree theres serious desync between our morality, our abilities and whatever. But i only see it as church's fault (that is, we talking science vs church here, there are lots of other reasons too), and lack of science and proper education. They messed it and we are experiencing the results just now. As for good and bad, you know, "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Just points of view. From my point of view what church did so far is bad.

I don't. Sorry, but i don't. Moreover, i think there would be no groups without religion. Communists tried that, and you see how it ended. Look USA for example. They have hundreds of religions there. And they have no groups. Every person just does their job, and doesn't care about others. Beaten man is lying on floor 5 hours and nobody helps. That is nation without religion, without groups, without morale.
And they are "strong" nation. They are "happy" nation. And peaceless one too. They had nothing more inside USA, so they started wars everywhere around, they are always afraid of terrorists (which came because they started wars on other places) and are putting all their money in security, which still isn't good enough. If same money was put in health care, or some public activities, or even education, much more Americans would be happy. Yes, as much as Church gave poor education, Americans do it too. For same reason, stupid people can't take them over.

Im afraid thats how they act lately. Yes, they ARE that stupid, i think you are missing a lot on that part, judging by your reply. They are against condoms too btw.

On a side note, if its only Hitler's fault, i dont think so. Its everyone's fault. Those around him, those who allowed the whole thing to happen, both in Germany and outside, not to mention those who helped financially making the whole thing possible - everyone is involved, one way or the other. So no, its not Hitler's fault, its humanity's fault. He was just one person.

On the other hand, Gandhi was too just a person. But that can only show how really diverse we really are, from Hitler to Gandhi - its all us humans. Everyone can be either Hitler or Gandhi, our self-awareness makes it possible for us to choose what we will be.
True, they are stupid. Well, Einstein know that: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Nothing you can do about that. You don't listen to them, if you know what your religion is.
Ok, if everybody's involved, which makes sense, nobody should make somebody apologize, as it's everybody's fault.

And theres no excuse when someone chooses to act like Hitler, or church, or communist party in former ussr/china, or just like a common retard or "businessman". Not that its just bad - its WRONG. Its against the principles of nature, and must be stopped right there.

Then how can you stop it? If it's even your fault. You help them. You don't know where your work or money goes. It can even be your grandchild that will act as Hitler. Things like that can't be stopped. They always come with idea, idea which blinds humans eyes, and makes them think The Person or The Organization is so great and has no flaw, that they'll help them. When Marx said his theories and idea of society, nobody could predict Hitler's actions. Same with French revolution. They started revolution to remove emperor, and they got new emperor! Great job! Would they do it if they new this would happen?


We have different opinions, i don't think we can find same language. But i want to say this: It's not Church which is wrong, it's mighty individuals in it. You can't blame old woman praying every day.
Same way, it's not USA which is wrong, it's mighty individuals in it. You can't blame businessman who just works every day.

Those with power wants to keep it. Those without it will try to get it. And they can get it only by destroying ones who have it.

So atm Christians have power, and Atheist want it. No offense, nothing wrong in any of those, it's what humans are. And their greed for power. Sure, there can be both Atheists and Christians good or bad. And if include my religion here, both can go to Haven or Hell. It's not your race, religion or position which leads you there, it's your personality, and your actions.

[havoc]

o man you have written so much stuff. will try to answer as best i can at that late hour.

Ok, then, world never started. Then black holes don't exist. Why? Because Big Bang isn't proven. None theory of creating of world is proven. And we don't have any proven theory of what black holes are and what they do, what happens it them etc. Todays science is advanced, yet not everything is known. There must've been something that started it all. It could be God, could be Zeus or Force, but it wasn't science.

And as science does bad things, Church does them. Not by itself, but by humans in it. Problem is when priests don not behave as they should, same way scientist don't behave as they should. Priest broke law when he _interacted_ with child, scientist broke law when he _interacted_ with "test sample".

Actually BigBang is pretty much proven. The reason its the most popular theory is exactly because of the amount of proof we have. The last book of S. Hawking deals exactly with whatever started it. Its pretty much complicated stuff, but in short, he is saying that the existing principles and laws of physics are enough to allow the Universe to create itself spontaneously from nothing. I know it sounds like bullshit, but theres serious scientific stuff behind it. You see, there is a problem with outside force staring it all - before the BigBang there was no space and no time. I said earlier that life is a phenomenon. Well, Universe is even bigger phenomenon. Its a huge phenomenon and i mean not in size, but in strangeness. In reality, nothing is what it appears to the common human being. Its that strange.

Science does not do bad things or good things. What it does is uncovering the areas where we lack knowledge. Its our only eyes for this world of wonders. Scientists cant behave this way or that way, they just go further (and what they reveal is what the church fears most. that is, there is not even a remote sign of god existence). Its up to the rest of us what to do with the results of their work. Like should we drop nukes here and there or should we do nuclear power plants. As for pedo priests, ye im sure there are pedo scientists too. The science itself tells us they should exist somewhere :) What church does as organization tho, is covering the pedo priest cases. Even tho the pope admitted it just few hours ago in some speech he had. But since he himself had covered such case(s) in the past, i doubt something will change anytime soon. It shows pretty well the belief such people have in their own god tho. Now thats a hipocrisy.

ah ye - black holes. well one thing is clear - they smash stuff. theres no "other side" really, since whatever gets close, gets destroyed. due to different reasons, like where the gravity is stronger, the time gets slower, and some other phenomena, the outside observer will probably see the object that goes in just at the event horizon, in reality the object will be destroyed already. so you have both - the object destroyed, but the information of it still existing. really interesting stuff, you wont hear about that in the church :) j/k, no offense.

Yeah, if clone was perfect. Till now none clone lived more than 5 years. All were retarded, with missing organs and so. When they tried to clone extincted species of one animal, they had over 5 millions sample female eggs, only 1 animal was born and died 2 minutes after. If animal doesn't die, it is killed because it can't live normal life. If they can't clone animal, they can't clone human.

I think you have fear of clones :) Anyway, one thing is sure - if we dont clone, we certainly wont learn how to do better clones. As simple as that. That goes for everything actually. Just using the cloning as an example here. Also im not sure we really need the "perfect" clones, except maybe for organ harvesting (i know it sounds cruel, but imagine someday your kidneys give up and theres no donor in sight, believe me you would cry for a cloned kidney stashed up in the fridge. fortunately, the oh-so-bad science invented new methods to actually grow new organs), or otherwise for medical research.

Yeah, but there was no businessmen before science. Business as it is now came after PC's and after pharmacy.

Science is indeed involved in business in many ways, but its not its origin. Far from it. Actually i think you mean something about the industrial revolution here, but then it was dependent on simple mechanical stuff back then, not much science really. Anyway that statement is a bit unclear to me, not sure if im getting you right here. Also, stock exchanges exists long before any pcs.

Yeah, nuke's could've been avoided too. I don't know if more people died from weapons or religion, but both made great damage to earth. Still, it's not like God said "Go kill them, they are not one of yours.", it was human who couldn't see different opinions. I personally think that you can't be wrong with religion, after all it is something you should decide by yourself. But still somebody has to say to you what it is. Force in religion is something human, and totally stupid.

Well, the certain thing is, lots of people died BY weapons BECAUSE of religion. And ye, in sacred books god does say to kill peoples, even as Deviant mentioned it - children. You can check on that if you dont believe me, do some scientific research yourself . It wont bite i promise :) To me, the religion itself is wrong. Wrong approach to everything. A wrong, and in the end harmful way of thinking and experiencing life.

I don't. Sorry, but i don't. Moreover, i think there would be no groups without religion. Communists tried that, and you see how it ended. Look USA for example. They have hundreds of religions there. And they have no groups. Every person just does their job, and doesn't care about others. Beaten man is lying on floor 5 hours and nobody helps. That is nation without religion, without groups, without morale.
And they are "strong" nation. They are "happy" nation. And peaceless one too. They had nothing more inside USA, so they started wars everywhere around, they are always afraid of terrorists (which came because they started wars on other places) and are putting all their money in security, which still isn't good enough. If same money was put in health care, or some public activities, or even education, much more Americans would be happy. Yes, as much as Church gave poor education, Americans do it too. For same reason, stupid people can't take them over.

Actually, americans consider themselves quite religious. They are so damn religious they even try to expel Darwins theory out of the schools. And most of the radical christianity is right there. They also have a very strong sense of community, actually much better than in EU countries. Just you dont see such americans on tv, but they do exist. Id like to talk more about it but really getting tired. Just one more thing - i sense you imply that church has something like exclusive rights over distributing morality - cant agree with that, if thats what you mean really. But i dont think you really mean that. I mean the roots of morality are far beyond religions and stuff and deep into our genes and biology.

Then how can you stop it? If it's even your fault. You help them. You don't know where your work or money goes. It can even be your grandchild that will act as Hitler. Things like that can't be stopped. They always come with idea, idea which blinds humans eyes, and makes them think The Person or The Organization is so great and has no flaw, that they'll help them. When Marx said his theories and idea of society, nobody could predict Hitler's actions. Same with French revolution. They started revolution to remove emperor, and they got new emperor! Great job! Would they do it if they new this would happen?


We have different opinions, i don't think we can find same language. But i want to say this: It's not Church which is wrong, it's mighty individuals in it. You can't blame old woman praying every day.
Same way, it's not USA which is wrong, it's mighty individuals in it. You can't blame businessman who just works every day.

Those with power wants to keep it. Those without it will try to get it. And they can get it only by destroying ones who have it.

So atm Christians have power, and Atheist want it. No offense, nothing wrong in any of those, it's what humans are. And their greed for power. Sure, there can be both Atheists and Christians good or bad. And if include my religion here, both can go to Haven or Hell. It's not your race, religion or position which leads you there, it's your personality, and your actions.

What Marx said is, whoever does the real work, shouldnt live like animal. He/she deserves better. Interesting how this point in his works is kinda missed. I guess something to do with impossibility to blame him for stuff since he would look too "moral". As for the French revolution, and all other revolutions so far actually, they all end up like that - the social tension is released mostly as violence, a short euforia combined with feeling of "freedom", and then fast backward to reality. And reality is - sheep need shepherd. Without him/her they are lost. And thats what they get. Thats what lack of (good) education results in. And as i say "education", i definitely dont mean just going to school. I mean much more than that.

i cant blame old woman for praying everyday ye, and i dont do it - far from it. i do blame those who would kill in the name of god (actually, i almost never mentioned a common religious person in my posts so far, if you have read them carefully). and i cant blame businessman for working everyday, but i do blame those who are driven by insane greed alone and who receive millions of moneys as awards for job well done every year. Money that actually come out of thin air. Well, someone has to actually work those moneys out, but no worries - hes somewhere in china or east europe or whatever.

atm actually the atheists have the power, since there are only a few, mostly small non-secular countries in the world (note usa not mentioned there btw). for the rest, a secular model is accepted in their laws and constitutions, mostly in the last 100-200 years, as an insurance certain dark ages dont come back. so there is a lesson learned here you could say.

but this - "We have different opinions, i don't think we can find same language." - this makes me kinda sad m8. you are drawing a line between us, and im not sure why. maybe you dont enjoy diversity of ideas, points of view and opinions? or should i accept your views, so when we are on the same side, then we find same language? you are willing to ignore the common ground, so only our differences matter?

OR

it was late, you have mistyped something, i didnt get it quite right, and its all a misunderstanding?